Yes, I think it is properly priced, to answer haha’s comment on yesterday’s post. The market will tell me whether I am right or not. Make an offer and we will find out! A little history for those who haven’t been reading previous posts. Tuesday, I wrote The Tale of Two Fliers which compared the previous listing flier to our flier. The house was on the market 183 days with an initial listing price of $824,950. We listed it on Tuesday for $699,000.
I just ran a new CMA on the property (Comparative Market Analysis). Basic search criteria: $600k-$900k, under 4000SQFT, with in a .5 mile radius of 8549 NW Ryan Forest Park as the elementary school, and active, bumpable, pending and sold since 1/1/08. The whole report can be viewed here. As a PDF, the interactive map and picture scrolling won’t work, sorry.
8549 NW Ryan is priced at an average of $200/SQFT (the second lowest of the actives and just a little higher than the overall average of $193. It is 2000 construction versus an average of 1997 for the actives and 1996 for the overall average.
Take days on market with a grain of salt. The report shows us as being on the market three days but it was listed for 183 previously. I have not looked at the history of the others. The DOMs reported are for the current RMLS numbers. See yesterday’s post regarding refreshing RMLS numbers. A change in agents requires a new RMLS number.
That’s my current hood. Over heard a couple at Ambrosia, the wonderful bakery in the ‘village’. They had a few fliers and had spoken to the realtor at the COLDWELL BANKER BARBARA SUE SEAL office also in the ‘village’. The realtor told the couple to expect inventory for Forest Heights to climb 20% by summer. It seems high now.
Wonder how many needed ARM’s to get into these pricey homes. Wonder how many can afford the resetting?
As for this neighborhood, it’s built on a steep hill with few houses having back yards since they had to have such HUGE houses! Those that have yards aren’t flat with a few exceptions. And speaking of the hill, good luck walking around. Either you are going to drive to the park, village and elementary school or you are going to be in very good shape!
And the ice and snow, we’ve had 4 days of challenges this winter for those driving up NW Miller and I assume the side roads had challenges, too. Even the SUV’s struggled which tells me they had bald tires or very crappy drivers. I am from Iowa and my car during HS was Dodge Omni!
We do have “Sale Pending’ signs up on a few places. And there area ton of condos for sale if any of you are interested;O)
Portland’s market is getting very interesting.
As of 6:45AM today, there are 72 active and bumpable detached homes listed in 97229 with Forest Park as their elementary. There are 16 pending sales and 22 sold in the last four months.
How fast should a “properly priced” property sell? A week? Two weeks? A month? Six months?
I’d like to see it sell asap but I think half the days of the overall market’s days on market would be the goal.
Listed at:
$824,950 07 Oct 2007
$734,950 07 Apr 2008
$699,000 08 Apr 2008 “properly priced”
1/2 market days is about 45 days, or 22 May 2008. Ten day range works out to be 12 May 2008 to 01 Jun 2008.
95% standard is $665,000 no later than 01 Jun 2008. Let’s see how you do.
Four bathrooms?!?! Does the house come w/ a housekeeper? Anyone else find that a turn off?!
Here is my favorite FH home thus far: 8015972. It was sale pending but now withdrawn(sold?) Though it is ‘only’ 3,000 square feet I like the use of space and the backyard. When it comes to huge homes like these the layout is so important, IMHO.
A friend north of Minneapolis has a new 4,000 square foot home with a crappy layout, lots of small rooms and get this, one huge master BR and only 2 dinky BR’s though there is an unfinished basement for when the kids get older. She jokes that they have already outgrown the house with only 3 kids.
My grandparents, on the other hand, have a 1500 square foot home in Palm Desert with open spaces, great flow. I’d take it over the MN house any day. Location not being a factor, of course.
So why not put the asking price on the flier? “If you have to ask then you probably can’t afford it” mentality?
It has some level backyard and backs to green space, big pluses.
Taxes seem pretty low relative to similar homes. Anyone know if taxes can be increased greater than the 3%(?) when the property changes hands?
I wrote the post on Sunday of last week before it was listed. I didn’t know the confirmed listing price so it wasn’t on the flier in the post. It is on the current flier at the property. No conspiracy on this one.
My understanding is that a sale does not trigger a new assessment so the 3% rule applies. I know pulling a permit can trigger an assessment but I don’t know if one type of permit does or doesn’t. It doesn’t seem right that a permit to replace a toilet (yes, you do need a permit to replace a toilet (http://www.portlandonline.com/shared/cfm/image.cfm?id=92685)) might trigger an assessment. A major residential remodel permit should do though. Confirm if the appropriate agencies if this is material to any decisions you make.
I wasn’t thinking conspiracy. I have seen other fliers w/out the price listed and always found that odd.
With sooo many homes to chose from in FH it seems that price may be the only thing that stands out at a glance. Most have been constructed in the past 10 years and when driving by they seem very similar. Variations: 2-4 car garages, 2.5-4 bathrooms, etc. Lots of homes to chose from.
But maybe you should have been thinking conspiracy. There is a camp out there that thinks that something vital should be left off the flier so that it gives the person a reason to call the agent. The theory being that the goal is to get a potential buyer inside to look and that becomes a possibility once a conversation is started. I’m not convinced.
If there is no price listed I just move on to the next. And if there are no fliers in the box (never are), same thing. No need to make a phone call when there are a billion other homes around the corner for sale.
OK, after much thought I am actaully gonna answer the question…is this house priced properly for this market? Being a bubble believer I have to say that this house is worth 600K max. But we won’t know until it actually sells now do we;O)
What impacted my decision: low Portland salaries, lack of massive flocks of folks moving here, lack of creative financing.
What I really wish was happening: People finally have realized that it is foolish to put more than 30-40% of their income toward housing. People have finally realized that maybe they should be saving for retirement and rainy days. People have finally realized that it’s no fun to live paycheck to paycheck.
Just my silly opinion:O)
The county tax assessment records represent this property to be 2820 sqft, or $564,000 at 200/sqft. Any idea what’s missing in the county record? Is the basement finished or unfinished? Also the county record only shows 3 bathrooms. Where are the bathrooms?
I always enjoy a good open house. After very careful examination, I have another question:
Can the 8549 NW Ryan St seller represent that a permit obtained for any and all work performed that required a permit? If not, what work was done without a permit?
I am especially concerned about the basement area (it appears that there was a lot of work done in the basement after construction, possibly without a permit). And since we know that a permit is required for the addition of a toilet, I am especially concerned that it was added without the necessary permit. This would explain the difference between the county assessor’s record and what is actually present. It also allows me to value the property more accurately. I am not sure that the basement is worth an extra $135,000.
One final question: What happens to tax assessments when past work is discovered that required, but a permit but one was not obtained?
This is why it is important for a buyer to do their due diligence regarding a home. PortlandMaps shows the house to 4231SQFT (and no permits on record but they don’t go back to 2000 online). That would be $846,200 based on the same logic. We had the house measured and the appraiser came up with 3484SQFT. Haha found data at 2820SQFT. I personally would have the most faith in William and Associates measurements from last week (but I did pay for them).
2080 sqft (1391+1429) here at the Washing County Assessors site:
http://washims.co.washington.or.us/GIS/index.cfm?id=30&sid=3&IDValue=1N135AA03200
It also says that the basement is UNFINISHED.
The current owner is the first one after construction, so he has knowledge, or should have knowledge, going back to day one.
Again, can the 8549 NW Ryan St seller represent that a permit obtained for any and all work performed that required a permit?
y/n
Correction:
2820 sqft (1391+1429), not 2080! Also Washington, not Washing. The property is clearly in Washington County.
I am pretty sure it’s Multnomah county. I live just north on NW Miller and as I drive south on Miller just before QFC on Barnes I come across a sign that tells me I am entering Washington county thus leaving Multnomah?!. Plus, when I registered to vote with my current address it stated Mult county on the paper work.
As for the permits, why is it the buyers responsibility? What responsibility lies with the seller and agent?
I once heard about a realtor being sued by a buyer which the realtor had represented years before: Buyer A buys house with un-permitted addition of approx 1,000 square feet. Buyer A tries to sell this house 4-5 years later but now lack of issued permits are being scrutinized by potential buyers and now buyer A is being held responsible for updating permits for work done by previous owner. Buyer A also tries to sue home inspector she hired 4-5 years ago.
OK legal folks, is the seller responsible for informing the buyer of un-permitted work? There is such a long list of disclosures, is this on there? Seems like it should be.
Let’s reverse your role Charles. You are the buyer’s agent for this house on NW Ryan. Is it your responsibility to notice that this house has un-permitted work done? Would you want your buyer purchasing a home with extensive un-permitted work? Would you, yourself, buy a house with extensive un-permitted work?
I assume this would all become a negotiable factor when an offer is made.
What if the neighbors report the un-permitted work thanks to the open house allowing all the nosy neighbors in! Now, while the house is on the market or soon after it is bought, the county comes by, assesses fines, checks the work and issues a new assessment raising taxes.
What would the new owner think about all this?
Would love to hear how all this pans out.
bearlee-
The property is 100% in Washington County. NW Miller is in Washington County for about a block, and NE Ryan St in in the middle of that block. In fact all of NE Ryan St is in Washington County. It’s in the second step of the “stair steps” of NE Washington County.
Also note that this is a “one owner” property, so it’s not a matter of trying to figure out who had the work done. If it’s not in the original plans covered by the original permit, then the current owner had the work done, possibly without a permit.
We have not heard back from Charles. I am going to call Washington County and ask about the building/permit history for this specific property. Maybe we can get an inspector out there to figure this crap out.
It just seems like it would be easier if Charles answered directly, and honestly, but I guess not.
Give him some time. It’s Sunday!
Let’s see if he will give an honest yes or no answer. At this point I don’t have much faith.
Tisk tisk Haha, you should get your facts straight before making statements. The seller is Laprino Foods, the PREVIOUS owner’s employer. The legal seller has never even seen the house.
More later, I’m going back to dinner with friends.
Scammin is lucrative
More for impatient thee of little faith:
1) Also note that this is a “one owner” property, so it’s not a matter of trying to figure out who had the work done. As mentioned before, you are wrong. The deed has been transferred. It is not just a matter of a phone call to the seller. Even if it was, the office number in Denver probably wouldn’t be answered on a Sunday afternoon. Tax records aren’t always right.
2)Cities, not counties manage building permits. In this case http://www.portlandonline.com/bds. See #4.
3) It is Washington County.
4) There is another post in here because bearlee is bring up an agency issue. My responsibility lies with my client. If the buyer is concerned about permits, they should verify. I will not be representing the buyer because we won’t be dual agents. Yes, there is a set of questions on the disclosures about permits. In this case, they are marked unknown; the seller has never been on the property.
5) We’ve noted three vastly different square footages. This is why we had the house measured. Tax records aren’t always right.
6) If you read THE WHOLE PAGE of the link to Washington County provided by Haha, you will notice a $60,100 value rough-in in the basement for 1411 square feet under the heading Improvement Details. Looks like the tax record might be at least partially right. A)the basement was finished under the original permit and the tax record was never updated B) there was a permit and PortlandOnline doesn’t go that far back. C) There was no permit. Any statement to which is accurate right now is a guess at best.
7) The link shows a hot tub. Haha, did you see it today at the open house? The tax record isn’t always right.
Scammin is Wang and four other previous aliases according to IP address.
There is still some debate about #3 above about Washington County. This is from the agent that held the open house today:
The house is officially in Multnomah County, but most of the rest of that street is in Washington County. The house immediately next door to the left (when facing the house) begins Washington County. This was a big topic of conversation today as most people familiar with Forest Heights seem to be very aware of the tax difference. There was an assumption from some that this house was also in Washington County. Fortunately, I had spoken with the next door neighbor and she gave me some helpful data. The other thing she let me know was that the lot directly behind her is a buildable lot, However, good news the space behind your listing is officially green space all the way down to the creek.
The Wasington/Mult Co. issue might change the location of the building permits as well. My full copy of the trio is up at the office.
If the deed was transferred, it was not recorded. Hell, it could have been transferred 100 times, but never recorded.
No, I did not see any hot tub. But a hot tub isn’t $130,000 in value. The value at the 1 sqft is about $200. Big deal. Also, even if it is not there, the sqft remains unchanged, if it was inside.
Let’s see how I do with a few phone calls. I may have to go and search the records in person. It won’t be the first time, and I am sure it won’t be the last time.
Oh, and I have no reason not to believe that it is 3484 sqft. In other words, the 3484 seems like an honest assessment of the property in its current condition. That’s not what I am questioning. I am looking at the county assessor’s record of 2820 and 3 bathrooms, and I am asking myself what is the difference.
The bathroom in the basement is of different quality, and so is the basic construction in the basement. I would guess that the basement area is the difference. Was the work done under permit? (seller has indicated “unknown”) Is it worth $130,000?
In any event, I will perform some further personal due diligence.
The final price will be less than $665,000 or it will sell after 01 Jun (possibly both).
Lots of possibly. No comfirmable material facts at 9PM on a Sunday. I’m not claiming to know the answers so won’t try. Haha is being a great buyer’s agent. This is how the transaction works with a buyer’s agent and a seller’s agent excpet that the buyer’s agent usually has the tact to confirm validity and discuss politely before making a scene (Also note that this is a “one owner” property, so it’s not a matter of trying to figure out who had the work done). Clearly it is.
One call to Portland BDS: 503-823-7000.
8549 NW Ryan new construction permit pulled in 1999. In 2002 a permit for finishing the basement, adding a bathroom fan and four plumbing fixtures (toilt, sink, shower and wet bar sink would be my guess).
Their computer is only set to show properties that fall within their domain in Multnomah County so we will see what the title report shows when I get that later today as to the WA/Mult question.
This whole thing is about as clear as mud. A call to (503) 988-3326 Multnomah County Property Tax Information Line reveals that they do not send NW Ryan a tax bill because it is in WA County. WA County Assessment and Taxation confirmed that they send a tax bill and cartography also confirmed.
So one more call to answer “who should have the permits then????” Call to Washington County Building Services: Portland has the permits because it is within Portland (Washington/Mult (or Clackamas which is also partially in Portland) does not matter.
Looks like the sale fell through on my favorite FH house: 8015972. Any idea what happened? Financing fell through most likely, my guess.
Pending 3/15 and back on market 4/9. Inspection period should have been over so I would hazard a guess of cold feet or financing. $214/sqft.
Just when you thought 8549 NW Ryan’s listing couldn’t get more confusing: I’m holding the broker’s open today and an agent from our office comes in and says that it is not a part of Forest Heights because her friend who lives three doors down doesn’t pay into the association. Quick call to the Association right then: the first two houses on NW Ryan off of NW Miller are in Forest Heights. Nothing else on the street is!
I am going to keep an eye those neighbors so they don’t use OUR trails….and no more driving through OUR beautiful gates on Miller and Cornell….hahaha…just kidding, of course.
So how silly was that planning?!?!
Accepted offer 13 days on market. No listing price reductions. That should be the extent of my comments during escrow.
This is day 56 (45+10+1), what’s going on with 8549 NW Ryan?
Still on the market. The second potential buyer that was interested in the property bought something else while NW Ryan was pending. Seller has the first buyer’s earnest money but that doesn’t get the house sold. RMLS shows a count of 46 days as days pending don’t count as the property is off the market for that time.